6 Levers Ep. 3
Josh: [00:00:00] All right, why can you rely on your kids? Putting you on the spot!
Joe: I mean, it's funny to say it, but it's just like, you know, rain or shine every morning, you wake up, your kids are there, and they're just themselves. They're silly, whiny, creative, curious selves, and it's just so fun. It's so – it’s something to not take for granted..
Josh: Yeah. Dude, it was great. We had dinner, we normally do like pizza on Fridays and so we had pizza and like the boys were like down playing, and Laura and I were actually having like a pretty serious conversation at the table and Jack and Noah both like ran over to Laura and they were sitting [00:00:45] on her lap and I was talking and then Jack started talking to Laura as well.
And I was like, Hey buddy. Excuse me. And I was like, Hey, can Daddy finish what he is telling, Mom? And he's like, No, no, no, no. We can talk at the same time Daddy. He's like, And then our words – and he is like making this reaction. He's like, Our words will collide with each other and make a bridge and then we'll walk over together.
And Laura and I were like, having this super – this is what he says and it's like super poetic! And, he's –
Shaun: Oh my God.
Josh: And we're like having a pretty, not a heated conversation, but the topic of it was pretty, like, we needed to see other sides. And Laura's like, Very good, Jack. You're very wise. And she like, [00:01:30] looks at me like, Did you hear what he said?
But yeah, to your point, man, you can always count on your kids for some element of, yeah, just pure joy.
Shaun: Yeah, that's amazing. I think about that with like the range of our kids right now from like 13 to 4, how I don't always like get pause long enough to appreciate it, but there's a lot of times where – like today in particular where I'm doing a little bit of work early in the morning and Stella just comes out of her room and she's like, Oh, hi, Dad.
I'm almost like, What are you doing here? Our four year old. And I just look at her. I'm like, Oh, hi, Stella.
I think I'm ready [00:02:15] for breakfast. I'm like, All right, let's have some breakfast. And then I come out, my first meeting after my, after the oldest wakes up and she's like at the bar stool. Doing a book study in her robe, like having breakfast, like all prepared. And I'm just like, just look at her like, I got this little emerging adult in my house now.
But to what you're saying, Joe, it always feels like a, just a source of joy and or frustration for sure.
Depending on the way the morning goes.
Joe: Totally. I was just gonna say, I mean, I think the piece is just about like, [00:03:00] it's always there. Like they're always there. That was like the reflection was just so much about…yeah, whether it's frustration or whether you can always rely on them to be there and themselves, and how that's like a new, as a still somewhat new parent, you know?
I feel like that was like the reflection, just that like, Hey, no matter what, I can always rely on you to be here with me. Whether you're tired or grumpy or incredibly happy and joyful and fun. It's like, you're always there and it's just like a real special thing that like they are literally one and four years old, right?[00:03:45]
But they bring this incredible consistency to my life, so.
Josh: All right. So if that's not a good enough transition, I don't know what is. So we're gonna, I'm gonna move us along to hit a topic that's pretty near and dear, I think, to all of our hearts and that's really just about leadership, and kind of piggybacking on what Joe just said, right? They're always there, right?
We were talking about kiddos, but leaders are always there as well and leadership can be either in the form of just a title, right? Somebody's a president, a CEO, a team leader, etc. Or it can be that they're showing up in their behaviors as well, right? So a leader is truly present. They have maybe the title or not, but their behaviors, their habits, their activities, [00:04:30] demonstrate that of leadership.
So really today we're gonna talk about just leadership being a part of the overall system, the Six Levers framework and really you can't have an intentional system. You can't have a healthy organization without intentional leadership. So we're gonna dive into the tools, the frameworks, stories from the field, and really kind of unpack this lever altogether.
All right. I'm gonna dive in with a quick story too, because this was just resonating, quite a bit, prepping for today. So this was about two years ago. and this organization at the time, they were a client. I remember us talking with them about a specific initiative that someone on their team was supposed to take.
I'm talking with the [00:05:15] leadership team and I'm like, Hey, do you think she has all the tools that she needs to do to execute this technology initiative appropriately? And the executive director at the time, he is like, She will do it. And I was like, Okay, but does she have everything she needs? Does she need us to step in?
She's like, No, she'll do it because she's terrified of me, and he kind of said it jokingly and he kind of said it like a badge of honor. And I just remember kind of like sitting back in my seat and we ended up parting ways with this client like three months later. Like that was like the tip of the iceberg.
Like, okay, this is not actually gonna be a good situation, and I remember just sitting there and like, Okay, that's leadership. Like that is the okay thing. We're not gonna talk about equipping people and so really today, [00:06:00]
Why is the leadership lever as part of the Six Levers framework important, and what does it help us do as leaders to show up for our team? Any initial thoughts going into that?
Shaun: Yeah, that story is, it's such a dramatic story. It makes me think how, you know, there's all these different types of leadership and one is just sort of the structural aspect of leadership, right? Yeah. I'm the manager. I've got people that report to me.I compel that sort of hierarchical, I pull that hierarchical, lever right?
When I want people to do what I need them to get done, then the scenario that you just described there versus the other end being, I'm inspiring [00:06:45] people I, you know, I have natural followers because they're attracted to the way in which I lead, and I'm just imagining that reality of like someone in that atmosphere.
Thinking that, and certainly knowing from evidence of both being, working in organizations or seeing teams like this, and then from our consulting work, that you can really only sustain that for a short period of time, right? Like you're – the people on the other end of that are simply not going to go along with that for very long.
And it's ultimately just going to pit – you know, you're, it's gonna run out. So it's like the other end of the spectrum is though, not just like, how do you actually flip that around and nurture [00:07:30] and grow and strengthen leadership and in a way that people are just excited to be on teams and excited to work with each other?
Josh: Yeah. Makes me think that I should have called that leader out as opposed to just being deflated and like, I can't help you, dude. So you made me think I should have flipped the script and just probed into it a little bit more, but that's pretty good. Joe, were you about to say something?
Joe: Yeah, I think, well, I think we, you know, as the leaders of some systems-level work, we talk a lot about, you know, having a healthy system and, you know, oftentimes the issue that you are facing is less of a people issue and more of a systems issue, and we 100% believe in that. [00:08:15]
And at the same time, in the absence of people who are showing up with leadership and leaning into the work, your system is gonna fall short, right? So at the end of the day, we do rely on people to steer the system and to be champions of it and to lean into it. and so the leadership lever is all about recognizing that, helping people to understand that how we show up matters.
And, you know, I think about, you know, the many different ways in which this can pop up, because it's not just, like these grand moments of leadership, right? Where you think like, CEO in front of the full [00:09:00] team, like having these big motivational speeches or, you know, big boardroom decisions, right?
Leadership shows up in so many different ways and all over the place. and the opposite of leadership can show up as well, right? Where people aren't bringing, you know, Leader qualities into their conversations, and that's where we spend a lot of time in our work is helping them to recognize that we're talking about like, how do you show up to how, how do you show up to a meeting, the, the regular Monday meeting, you know how you show up when your team's facing some serious tension.
Right, and what do you bring to the table in those moments? [00:09:45] So, I get fired up about this because it is, there's just so many opportunities to lean into it and when teams do that, when they're super intentional about how they show up, how they create a culture where people are mindful of how they show up, it becomes a superpower.
We sort of joke about it, but it really does become a superpower and we, yeah, we love working in this –
Josh: Yeah.
Joe: In this part of the system.
Josh: So can we unpack that a little bit? Where you were saying, you know, we work with leaders and help them show up, whether it's a meeting or something else. Dive into that.
How do you actually go about helping leaders show up for a meeting, a quarterly, [00:10:30] you know, quarterly review? Can you break it down?
Joe: Well, we start by showing them examples and non-examples of what it can look like at the most bite-sized level, right? So we love running this – I'll go off on a quick tangent – we love running this exercise.
We call it a “moment of leader magic”, and it's a simple leadership team meeting. There's some light tension in the air and a leader who's on the team but not even a part of the tension, steps up, shows up with curiosity, empathy, self-awareness and winds up changing the trajectory of the meeting, right?
Total intentional move. Didn't need to do [00:11:15] that, but completely shifts the trajectory of the meeting and that repeated amongst the team over and over again, that team's gonna be in a different place. So we sort of like to show that even at just this really bite-sized level, what it can look like, and then of course, show the alternative as well, which I won't give the example, but we've all been there, right? Where meetings just turn into madness.
It's a mess. We struggle to show up and bring our A-game and, yeah, and oftentimes leave frustrated, disengaged, you know, a bit.
Shaun: Yeah, it, it reminds me, Joe, just, we've been talking internally about how like some of the levers, when you mash 'em together there's [00:12:00] a really powerful combination.
Although we'd argue at a, I think a very high-field theoretical level that you can, the overlaps are seemingly endless and how they're all – or the connected points are all seemingly endless. But a couple of ones where they show up in a little bit more obvious and regular way. would be when we think about things like rhythms and some of these leader practices that Joe's talking about.
And he even just mentioned one of them, right? Like the, it – let's say the setting for that moment of Leader Magic was during a weekly leadership team meeting and there was a little bit of tension that arose and that leader called upon one of these leader practices to help resolve the tension and really just move the meaning forward in a really meaningful way.
And you know, that's so often [00:12:45] we, I think we come up against this idea and common thought process in organizations where it's like there's systems work and then there's like people and leadership work, and we probably touched on this a little bit in our last episode, but, you know, it's like we compartmentalize them and I'd say probably more often than not, we tend to prioritize like the leader and people development stuff like, not as much as we should.
So it's like if we have extra money left over in our budget or, you know, it's more of a “nice to have”, but really what we've seen is like the implementation of something like strong operating rhythms, like a great weekly team meeting, like a strong quarterly sync where you're setting priorities.
When you're running a retrospective and you're looking back, are made so much [00:13:30] more meaningful when each participant embraces curiosity and self-awareness and a good calibration of being supporting and challenging. So it's not, – I think that the point here I'm making is that it's not enough just to be effective at running, you know, going through the agenda and of each of these core rhythms.
In fact we would say, you know, that's really not even, we don't even want you thinking about that in general. We want you thinking about it as, How do we do that and bring these leader mindsets and practices to strengthen team cohesion and effectiveness?
Josh: I feel like I have like insider information, so I know some of the stories about like, you know, the stories from the battlefield. [00:14:15]
Can you touch on just some, for some of the listeners, like what are some of these times where you've seen it just be an absolute trainwreck and then the other times where it's like, Okay, this leader showed up in my life, embracing these leadership practices and trying to really like hit some of these concepts home?
Shaun: Yeah. I'll hit on one. I mean there was an organization I used to work at, several years ago. You know, we had some strong rhythms in place. We were committed to a kind of a regular review of our most important key performance indicators as a – with the intent to, good intent to try and drive learning and improvement. Look at the data, look at the trends, open up some conversation, make some improvements based on our, you know, for [00:15:00] operations and programs based on, you know, what we've learned in those conversations.
But what ended up happening as we rolled that new rhythm out, there was a leader around the table who did not bring a mindset of curiosity. And so when we had targets and we wouldn't hit the targets, he would come, like he would – came into the meeting frustrated and angry looking around the table, basically like more looking to assign blame, like, Who didn't do their job here? Why did this happen? How could we have missed this target? This is the second time in a row. Like, what's going on here? Like, This is so important, right?
And very accusatory in feeling, right? Whether he meant that or not, that's just how it [00:15:45] felt to be a participant around the table. And so we did that three times and what happened by the fourth time was, well, one, we had a few leaders not come.
I think it felt like such an unpleasant experience that they were just like, Why would I even come to this meeting? It's not opening up meaningful dialogue, I'm just feeling accused, and that doesn't feel like a time where we're actually learning, right? And then we had a few other leaders, and I know this sounds silly and crazy, but it actually happened where they put bandaids on their forehead and I asked them after the meeting what that was about.
I was like, cuz they felt like they were getting beat up, like in the meeting. So it was like their way of saying like, This is such a rough meeting, like, that's how I feel about it. [00:16:30] . So anyway, so yeah, so that's kind of the worst case scenario, how that could be. I will say that we made some improvements, you know, with that dramatic moment in the meeting.
Rhythm did get better but it certainly did not, you know, the way that leader came, did not tee up the opportunity for us to actually learn about what was going on and actually make real improvements. So we weren't meeting the intent and the objective of the meeting, based on the way that leader, a very high authority in the organization, was coming and creating that environment.
Josh: That’s really good. And I – Oh, go ahead, Joe.
Joe: Oh, I love the reflecting back on sort of the [00:17:15] moments where it was unexpected that somebody stepped up. So sort of the example, right? Where you didn't expect someone to step up and they did. You know, the meeting example that I shared earlier, I had a very similar experience with a leader who I used to work with.
Just stepping up in that moment and helping to resolve the tension and the impact that it had on the team was like, This is how we – this is how this can be done, right? Like, when these types of things happen. We can show up and be solutions-oriented. We can be empathetic. We can find this balance of support challenge with [00:18:00] people we don't even manage, right?
And the impact of that is everyone else in the room sees it, right? It's not just the CEO or the leader of the org who sees it. Everyone sees it, and so it just sort of raises the level for how others should show up. You know, if this person can do it, why can't I?
So I just love those examples. People step up in, you know, areas you didn't even expect it, it's public or somehow seen by others and the impact that can have on the whole team.
Shaun: Joe. I love that. By the way, Joe is like our constant beacon of, of light. Back to the good examples. I feel like I'm on the other end. Okay. More often, which I don't know [00:18:45] what this says about me, but, thanks for bringing your – you're triggering some good ones for me now, Joe, so I appreciate that.
I'm thinking of like just this, a similar meaning rhythm of the one I just described, different organization, but because the CEO took such a disposition of curiosity, in those meetings, same type of people around the table, top leaders looking at key performance indicators, but like there was a norm, in the group around if we walk out of this meeting with nothing more than like two new meaningful questions, like that's a success.
Like if we look at it and we're like, This isn't what we are thought, but what's the thing we're really trying to get at and is there a new question that we should be asking that [00:19:30] we should go dive into, do some research analysis and come back and continue our learning?
Man, that was like the most fun time of the month for that group of leaders to come, knowing that there was going to be a lot of divergent thinking, a lot of encouragement to get to like the real learning.
And I tell you, it changed so many things in that organization and included replication of programs that were working well, you know, just kind of holding up and shouting out some of the biggest wins to raise more money for that organization. It also included some tough decisions, but were great learnings, winding down some things that, ultimately, were not successful in that, be asking hard questions about things that had been around for a long time, but all because [00:20:15] there was a permission to be very curious and to go into deep questions.
Joe: That's awesome. Shaun, I think that that permission piece is so important, right? Like when that leader behaves that way and shows curiosity, in this case, you create permission for others to be that as.
Sometimes our teams don't know how they should show up, right? They – because there's, no teams haven't actually defined like, Hey, this is what leadership looks like and so instead they look at the leader and say, How, how do they behave? That's what I'm assuming is the unspoken model.
Or we have these moments of bravery and courage [00:21:00] and people show up and do amazing things but far too often, you know, few and far between and what we see more of is just a reflection of the CEO, the C-suite, right? So I just love that piece around permission and I think that that's why creating some common language around how do we define leadership, right?
Six levers, self-awareness, vulnerability, curiosity, support, challenge. What we do by naming that is we, not only do you have permission but these actually really impact right teams. You know, but creating that common language sort of creates the space for people to say, Okay, here's how we think about leadership in [00:21:45] our organization.
What can I do to bring more of this to the table, and yeah, and really live it out and have permission to do it.
Josh: When you say, Bring more of that to the table, how do you indoctrinate that within an organization, right? We're talking about anybody and everybody in an organization, not just the leaders, not, you know, who run the team or the C-suite.
Talk to me about the ways in which Six Levers helps popularize indoctrinate the concept of leadership practices amongst the entire organization.
Joe: Well, I think for anyone who's been a part of a team where core values were really strong and alive [00:22:30] inside the organization, you've experienced at least a version of what that can look like, right?
Because you've been a part of a team aligning around a core set of behaviors that are unique to that organization, that are probably referenced somewhat, regularly celebrated, shouted out in many ways, that's what we bring to the leadership component, right, is we say, Hey, here's a handful of what we refer to as a “central leader practices”, and train on them, right?
Align on, Why are these so powerful? and then, How do I actually bring more of this into my own practice? and that's sort of part two is like some real, you know, practice-based training, [00:23:15] you know, where people are role-playing conversations, with – you know, and really trying on what is curiosity looks at, sounds like, feels like, what does it look like to actually show up with support and challenge, right?
Try to be the DeMeco Ryans of your team, right? And bring more, build out more DeMeco Ryans on your team. So the training piece is – oftentimes is definitely the harder part, right? Just naming it shouldn't be that difficult, right, and, you know, naming what those essential practices are for your organization, but then it's like, How do we get in and actually train people to build skill in this area, cuz it's not, you can't just expect it to [00:24:00] happen overnight after we define what those practices are.
Shaun: Yeah, Joe, that makes me think like you're pointing out this important step, like common one or step one, begin to define common language and do some training on it, right, and what those tools and practices are and it, you know, I think one of the reasons we're so drawn to an idea of strengthening org health through a framework.
Because what we see is many times, if it was just training, the question of the leaders would be saying, Well, how do we make sure this moves into the framework of the organization? And without an organizational operating system, it may not – it may in some teams and not in other teams, it may kind of rely on the resolve and [00:24:45] grit of the leader to like push it through, check on it, you know, continue to move it into individual plans and things like that.
But when you do have something like an organizational operating system, then what you can do is you can say, Well, if I'm committed to the practice of self-awareness, what might I might I do with that?
Maybe what I say, as a team, we would commit to getting regular feedback from each other, right? Because I wanna learn more about myself and I'm committed to bringing that practice and strengthening that leader practice to life and making it really real and more, becoming more normalized and not just sort of this thing that, Oh yeah, I forgot about that self-awareness thing, right?
And so then you move it into practice and you say, Okay, if we're committed [00:25:30] to feedback and we're gonna now train on what that might look like and how we do that, well, and then we're gonna move it into our operating system to say, Well, when would we do it? Is there a core rhythm?
Maybe we would incorporate some of it into, Is there an agreement if we think about the cohesion lever, where we might say, we are not necessarily gonna commit to a rhythm, but we're gonna commit to each one of us doing something related to feedback, giving it, asking for it, at a certain frequency for the next quarter, right?
Like all these ways, when you begin, the question begins to emerge. I've got some great leadership development training. What do I do to make sure I move it into the way we operate and it kind of becomes more normative then it's like, What lever do I go to? Do I go to a key rhythm? Do I go to something I need to bring in a focus for the quarter, for the year?
[00:26:15] There's a place for it in the framework and we find the teams start to feel really encouraged when they can connect those things together.
Josh: So I'm gonna go against Joe here for a second where he's the light, he brings us back to the positive, but we've talked a little bit before about – Right, it's not just enough to have different tools and frameworks, it's also how we show up. We've talked about that a lot. How leaders show up, what happens if there isn't intentional leadership as part of the framework? What happens to these things in terms of, right, We can have a framework but we don't have leadership as a core concept within it.
What does that mean for the organization? What does that mean for organizational health, and have you seen any [00:27:00] examples where they don't stress leadership and developing it as much?
Joe: Well, I think that, I mean, this is that accidental versus intentional piece in many ways. I think it just happens more accidentally and you try to make it happen through hiring, right? You try to hire great leaders. There's no organization out there that's not trying to hire people, where part of their criteria is not like, I hope they bring some sort of leadership even, you know, even if into whatever the role they're at and then you just hope that folks have sort of also believe in leadership, believe that that's an important part of any employee's responsibility,is just like kind of leading themselves and showing up with, you know, so it's accidental. It's less [00:27:45] intentional.
You hope that you've got good managers out there encouraging, you know, the right behaviors and I think, you know, because at the end of the day people do show up in accidental environments all the time. You start to think, well maybe this is fine, right? I saw so and so they really like brought their A-game or, you know, I think actually, I think it creates this broken mindset that only some people are capable of, right?
And it's sort of, we just have this like, you know, about 75% of your staff is just gonna be average or worse and then you got like the, you know, the rock stars. We got this language around rock stars and it's like the top [00:28:30] 25, 10% of your org – those are the rock stars, those are the leaders.
That's just the way things are. Well, that's horse, right? I mean, like that's not true. We've all seen people rise up, right, and take over and so, it just happens more accidentally and I think it creates this broken mindset that only certain people have it within, which is bummer.
Shaun: Yeah. Joe, I love that reminder that, you know, at the core of this, when we talk about leadership, where we carry a belief and we hope others do as well, that anyone is capable of bringing it and [00:29:15] modeling it and that's so important I think and I love that you're just calling us out cuz it can feel like such a change in paradigm when all of a sudden everyone is beginning to encourage it, maybe to even hold each other accountable in a team where it's not being modeled, and can call upon something in a meeting to say like – you know, and not weaponize it. By the way, I'm not –
Sometimes you see this when sort of like, the immature embodiment of this might look like, Hey, I'm not sure you were so curious there. I'm not saying that right. I'm just saying more like in a true, good intention when you don't see it there to maybe call it to the room or even when the time is right, but it just creates, [00:30:00] again, creates permission, right? For everybody to bring it as opposed to what, Joe, I love what you're saying. They're just the managers, right, or the people who are in leadership, so that's so huge.
Any other couple things, Josh, that come to mind here are thinking about, and this may be an oversimplified way of thinking about categorizing people, but in, or there tends to be, especially in mission-driven organizations, there's a large group of people that are just very drawn to the mission, to the people, to like just the purpose.
And you get – you start to talk about and focus on the implementation of things that look like too much systems and structure, and you're gonna lose some people, right? You're gonna lose some of that [00:30:45] camp that are just like your missional warriors that are there to do the work. You start rolling out all these things all, Hey, a new rhythm, new annual planning process, new quarterly. Well, here's your vitals, and all these things that are in our framework and we deeply believe in.
But if we were just to do all that stuff while not talking about it, and here's how you show up as a great leader and here's how we strengthen teams, those folks that are, that are largely there and by the way, you hope most people are primarily there for those missional reasons.
You run the risk of losing them along the way, right? They're gonna, they're not gonna be bought in. They're gonna hear all this stuff and hear more work and I'm all ready really busy, and you're stacking on like 13 new things for me to do, but if you connect it to people, connect it to [00:31:30] how we – it'll strengthen our team.
How to help us all be better leaders, then I think we as the people that are implementing this in organizations, whether you're a consultant or whether you're a navigator, you run a much better chance of bringing people along and gaining their buy-in, by keeping the people leadership component at the forefront.
Joe: Shaun, you remind me of that piece about authenticity is so important and you remind me of some of these moments that we've been able to observe where we’re, you know, we get to observe a lot of meetings, you know, after we run trainings on how to run meetings, we oftentimes get to observe them and help coach on the meetings.
And I've been a handful [00:32:15] where you, we see, we get a chance to see these sort of almost culture-redefining moments where someone on the team is showing up with a different level of leadership than they had and they're doing that in this environment that has a certain set of norms, right? And they're trying to bring this different level of leadership, whether it's the curiosity piece, whether it's this like supportive challenge against an assumption that's maybe been around for a while, but in those moments you see this authenticity around trying to show up and work to better the team in some [00:33:00] authentic way.
And how powerful those moments are, right? Where somebody, you know, chooses to do that and it only takes a few for people to start to realize, Hey, like maybe there is a better way and maybe it doesn't have to look like, heroic, right? Or that time-intensive or, you know, maybe it just looks like some of these moments of magic where someone is showing up with the leadership in a real authentic way. Super cool to watch those moments happen.
Josh: I'm gonna pull on that one a little bit. So we're talking about moments, and then I'm going back to something that you said earlier on Joe, about your kiddos where it's just [00:33:45] like, whether they're tired and grumpy, they’re incredibly consistent. That's the thing that I wrote down that you said like those kiddos are incredible consistency within your own life.
Is it about moments though of just like top-notch leadership, someone trying to show up? Or is it the focus, like, I'm pulling on the different levers within the framework. It's focus and it's a rhythm of it and it's consistently trying to practice the leadership practices, right? So I'm trying to like tug on like, Okay, is it just moments?
Joe: It certainly is, but also – but I think I'm a big believer in the power of moments and you know, I think we can all reflect back on these moments in our life that had a huge impact, right?
[00:34:30] Whether it was a speech or something we observed. I mean, some of these moments of leader magic were moments I observed that have inspired me to try to lead in certain types of ways, right? So I think on the one hand it can be as simple as that moment where somebody finally shows up with some support challenge in the meeting that has been lacking any bit of accountability or authenticity around addressing tensions and problems, and someone finally shows up and does it and has this moment, I think that can be this like trajectory-shifting moment.
But then, right, like you're saying, you do it once and nothing changes, then that was just a fun moment to put it [00:35:15] on the highlight reel, right?
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Joe: So it is, after that it has to, you know, convert into saying, Hey, we noticed that was helpful, how do we make this our practice?
Josh: Yeah, yeah.
Joe: Right? Because it's often that easy. You know, to the point of, you know, you gotta put it into practice, you gotta keep coming back to it. I think it's a – it's both and.
Josh: That's good. Real good.
Shaun: It makes me think about the – we're talking about these moments, but you know, as I'm imagining all of the teams I've been on and observed, I'm kind of like, have this flash of memories, and I remember what it felt like and what I immediately think of, and some of those teams, the likelihood [00:36:00] of those leader moments, those special moments was far more likely than in other teams, right?
And so it's like, what has to happen to create an environment for those moments to be likely or unlikely to occur, right? And I think that's a lot of what we're talking about here and when you're pulling on that leadership lever in particular, you're increasing the likelihood that those moments are going to happen with a greater frequency than they would if you're not, right? And just imagine like an environment where team cohesion was kind of low – I'm sure all of us have, have been on a team like this at one point in our career – and the courage that it might take to bust through all that and like bring this moment of, let's say, vulnerability, [00:36:45] right?
And where it's not happening, where there feels like there's very little space, right? Maybe that's just one of, it's an environment where you're running around like crazy hair on fire, spinning multiple plates and not only that, but there's also not a culture of regular vulnerability. And then you've gotta muster that in this one moment it seems very unlikely versus like it's, that's happening with some frequency. You're not overloaded with so many things on your plate that you actually have some emotional and mental space.
So it's kind of courage, but it's also just this idea of actually have the bandwidth to even think this way cuz I'm not so focused on crisis after crisis or like immediate needs, right? So just calling what do we have to do [00:37:30] as leaders, as teams to feel, to create space for those moments to actually happen?
Josh: That's good. While you're talking, I'm thinking about since you're talking, I'm thinking about a moment specifically with you that was very actually defining in and I think how I approach my role at Mission Matters group. This was probably like a year and a half ago, and I actually just went over the Slack message that I sent out, communicating something that I'm just like, Come on, dude.
But anyways, we had a leadership team meeting and I was gathering input for some serious, some important decisions that we were gonna make. One was about a new hire and the second was about, the alignment of a client with our core values and just making sure it was a good fit and we didn't have any reservations. [00:38:15] So I'm trying to embrace curiosity. I'm taking all this – take input, take input, take input. I said, Okay, cool. I'll process it over the weekend. All that good stuff.
So I just looked at my messages and on a Sunday night. – well, backstory, I got some feedback from this, kind of coach of mine where he is like, Hey, how predictable are some of your decisions, and how well do you document them? Like, I need to work on documenting my decisions. So I think I'm doing something good.
I was curious. I took all this input. I document my decisions. I send it out via Slack. Monday's leadership team meeting was a little bit different than I was expecting. We go in there and Shaun raises us. He's like, Hey, dude, [00:39:00] I'm a little frustrated right now because we gave you all this input. We gave you some pretty heartfelt feelings and perspectives that we entrusted you to, but we have no idea where you're at other than the decision that you made.
And I just kinda like sank back in my chair and I'm like, Holy smokes, cuz he was spot on. And then Jason, another member of our leadership team, he is, he's like, Same thing man. He's like, You know, we're happy to give you this input, but we're also expecting a dialogue here. We don't know how, you know, what mental hurdles you jump through to come to these conclusions.
We're not opposed to the decisions, we just don't know. Right? So I thought I was doing good, documenting my decision, curiosity, but then what I learned in that moment is I overlooked vulnerability and I was [00:39:45] on the receiving end of the support challenge and it's not like they were like badmouthing me or anything, or like coming at me, it was just very like candid. It was very vulnerable.
And so I had one-on-one conversations with both of them and I learned a lot. I learned a lot about my approach, I learned a lot about my shortcomings, I learned a lot how much I value vulnerability on their end, and it was like truly redefining, in terms of how I approach a lot of things.
Now, every once in a while, I know what posture is, or my default mode of operation, and I have to be aware of that. Otherwise, I'll make the same decision over again – to take input, not share where I'm at, and make a decision. So again, it's something that I think about all the time, and it was a year and a half ago, but that is one of the moments that was momentous or [00:40:30] created momentum within our, you know, my overall embracing of these practices.
Shaun: So, yeah, that's a great story, Josh.
Josh: Thanks, Shaun.
Shaun: I appreciate you…
Joe: Well, I was gonna, well, I was just gonna say the power of moments right here, right? It wasn't your, it wasn't a moment that you particularly are happy with how you executed, but you learned a great deal. But it also speaks to the piece around the practice, right? Because at the end of the day, we can be super intentional all the time because we've decided how we show up matters.
There's some practices out there that if I put in place, it can be super influential for me and execution is a whole different, planning and execution is, is a whole different ballgame, which [00:41:15] is why, you know, I think that that curious lens, that willingness to be vulnerable and just like show your cards and even have this moment that you're having right now is so powerful in terms of continuous learning and just making the impact that you're trying to make.
That's great. Thanks for sharing that.
Josh: Yeah.
Shaun: Yeah. I love, yeah, I want to thank you. Thank you for sharing it, being vulnerable in front of more than, whoever – our millions of listeners here. .
Joe: We'll have to cut that. We'll have to cut that. There’s too many people.
Shaun: Josh is gonna get flooded with thousands of emails after when this airs, but, he did it anyway. He's so brave and so –
In all seriousness, two things come to mind. One [00:42:00] is that I love that about our team, that, you know, the greatest thing I had to overcome in calling that out was just an uncomfortable moment, right? Like, and maybe like the risk of calling it out would be like we have a 10-15 minute uncomfortable, slightly awkward exchange while Josh – cuz Josh is really great at this – Josh begins reflecting immediately, right?
So he did reflecting afterwards, but when, I know from working with Josh for a long time, when I give him news like this, he immediately starts reflecting on it. So I knew what that would be. What it didn't have to worry about is, would it change anything in our relational dynamic?
Would it change anything about how he views me and trusts me and [00:42:45] vice-versa. So the stuff that really matters, I was able to bring that because I was secure in it and all that was at risk, was a slightly uncomfortable moment within a meeting structure. So thank you for lending, for creating an environment for me to do that.
But I think just a point to, you know, what we're talking about with these leadership moments is, that's so important. When we think about what we're – the environments we're trying to create.
Josh: That's good stuff. I got one question on here that I've been waiting to hold or waiting to share. So, all right, maybe this is how we'll close it out.
What's one way you've adapted the essential leadership practices in your own life, and how can [00:43:30] you, share that with our millions of followers right now? And this can be work or personal. I was thinking more personal, right? Like hit, hit the, ELPs again, right? Vulnerability, curiosity, support, challenge.
So yeah, talk to me about those. How have you adapted 'em in your own personal life?
Shaun: I can start, I'll start with support challenge, and I'll say a little bit what this is, because it's maybe the one leader practice that isn't intuitively known until you explain it. But it's just the balance of being supportive, encouraging, providing the resources that people need, creating the environment where they feel supported and then challenging. So calling up to higher expectation, you know, calling up to achieve more. [00:44:15] Right?
These and having these two well-calibrated with an understanding when you're doing that, it creates a more kind of liberating feel for the person that you're working with, and so I'll share, my tendency is I'm a feeler. I'm an empath, I'm a nurture and I may not, by the way, I may not feel like that to everyone that interacts with me until they get to know me a little bit better but because of that, I tend to skew towards support and I can be slow to call the challenge.
And so one I've come to just know that about myself and the framework is even helpful from a self-awareness perspective for me to know that about myself and so, what I have, I sort of have my own internal [00:45:00] working agreement where I wanted, like the story you just shared, Josh, like, even though I described that as easy, the truth is for me, it's not super easy because I tend to be slow to bring challenge because I want all my relationships to be in harmony, right?
That's just a way that I'm sort of wired. I, without going into all Shaun, Steve history and potential wounding of why that is there, but that's just, that is a truth about me. So the way I've intentionally worked on that is to bring challenge and at a greater frequency and to be okay to kind of just work through what feels like a very unsettled, unsettled feelings when I'm going through that, knowing that [00:45:45] the more that I do it, that'll go away.
Joe: Hmm. Love that. I think the one that I've – One of them that I've learned quite a bit about is the curiosity practice. You know, I think I've always considered myself like a curious person and really enjoy learning and so I think on the one hand you might think like I might reflect back and think this is a strength, right? This is a clear strength, but, I think when you think about the full practice of curiosity, it's more than, you know, just being a learner, right? Or someone who's generally in, you know, curious by, by things going on [00:46:30] in the world.
There's two things that come to mind that have really helped me to adopt curiosity in a more effective way as a leader. One to, in moments where I'm a part of some sort of collaborative team and I'm playing a role in driving that work forward, curiosity in the form of asking questions of people when they bring new ideas to the table, especially when my initial reaction or response to those ideas is maybe more critical than like accepting or receiving.
So really trying to notice [00:47:15] those moments and say, like, How can I ask better questions here and seek to understand and be more curious about maybe where that idea came from or why they have that idea and to see the value that can come out of that.
And replacing sort of a steadfast or maybe even stubborn behavior with curiosity and then, you know, prior to MMG, I was, worked in schools and I, you know, was a part of man, many meetings with parents, where I'm talking to a parent about their child and their child's education and oftentimes a difficult moment, inside of the school, and I [00:48:00] got some advice from a coach, around this idea of curiosity, sort of complimented with really working to honor the story that you're hearing from the parent and be curious and listen.
And so especially in moments where, like it's maybe a more reactionary conversation or reactionary moment, where somebody is upset to sort of just try to get present and honor the story that is being shared with you and trying to show that curiosity around what is, where's this coming from, right, and how can I just listen and learn? — Can make all the difference, right? [00:48:45]
You can have no ideas on solutions, no ideas on, you know, where anything's coming from, but just through that sort of creating the space to listen and then be curious and ask questions and connect with the person, can be super powerful.
Josh: That’s good, man. Yeah, I think curiosity as well and – I guess this is more from a personal lover level. I have multiple sclerosis, and my neurologist told me this one time that's always stood out in my life and I feel like it helps me embrace curiosity, but my neurologist said, The sooner that you become comfortable with uncertainty, the better off you'll be.
And that one [00:49:30] was just like, All right. Right, on any given day, I don't know if my leg is gonna be numb or my hands will be numb, or something like that. I haven't had any, you know, issues in quite some time – I feel very blessed because of that – but anyways, that lesson has stood out to me significantly, and so kind of what Shaun was talking about earlier on, I – that was like my tipping point in terms.
I'm trying to always reflect on my actions to see if my actions produce a result that I liked or not, and so I'm very curious in the way that I ask, do I like what happened, in the way that I functioned, in the way that I acted in what I said?
So, yeah – and, same thing, like how my body responds to things as well. So, that is definitely something that I feel like over the last few years I've leaned into [00:50:15] curiosity significantly as it relates to, just those very personal questions. If I put this into my body, do I like what – how I feel? Do I like, you know, how I think?
So yeah, that's my personal one.
Shaun: Love that. Thank you for sharing.
Joe: Can we move on now because I'm uncomfortable. This is me being vulnerable again.
Shaun: Yes, we can move on. Thank you for sharing that.
Josh: You're welcome. Alright, well, let's close this up. So what we like to do is really end with just some type of, practice this now. How do you make progress? How do you make momentum in embracing these topics that we're discussing today? So within, you know, 30 seconds, a minute, give some direction.
If somebody [00:51:00] within any part of an organization anywhere in the hierarchy, what's one thing that they should start thinking about or trying tomorrow, other than coming to six levers.co to learn more about the essential leadership practices.
But what’s one thing that you would encourage somebody to start doing tomorrow or to start thinking about tomorrow as it relates to their leadership and how they show up within their organization?
Joe: Well, two thoughts. If you are a leader of a team, to align with your team on even just one practice that they believe is important for leadership. Create, facilitate some learning and alignment around that practice, what it looks like, why it's valuable, and call on the team to be more intentional about showing [00:51:45] up with it, and have some sort of rhythm where you're checking in on it.
If you're not a team lead or you know, and you're just, you know, working and working to bring more leadership, go through a similar exercise with yourself and just think about, What's a quality that I want to show up with more and more of? Let's do some of your own learning and research around it and just work yours – work on it yourself. You know, create a little bit of a self-practice, just like you might think about with an exercise rhythm or routine, and we've got some great ideas on what those might be.
But you know, we know that the four leader practices that we really train on are not the only [00:52:30] four and – so something that feels really motivating and, important to you is where I would start.
Shaun: Yeah, that's great. I mean, I was gonna say something pretty similar. I mean, maybe the only thing I'd put a finer point on or just double down on is, as you go through that training – and I love what Joe's saying – like what resonates for your team as a starting point?
Like if you think of different things you can learn, whether it's increased empathy or curiosity or you know, or increasing self-awareness, you know, where does the team wanna start based on, you know, what they feel like is the greatest potential need, or just responding to some existing current tensions as a way to prioritize where to start and then after you go through that training, just thinking about, like, what's one [00:53:15] micropractice you could commit to, like just something real small.
Like if we – I mentioned feedback earlier. so it could be something like that where you commit to getting feedback at a certain frequency, It could become, to Joe's point about curiosity, if you're, you know, asking questions more like a coach, right? I'm gonna approach my next three one-on-ones, I'm going to commit to asking a series of questions and not just jump into giving advice, right?
So I could embrace and model curiosity in that way. So just pick one or two things that come out of that learning that you then hold yourself accountable to begin to work on practicing.
Josh: Good stuff. All right, well, if you'd like to learn more, we already talked about it, but come to sixlevers.co. We will have a [00:54:00] Rolling Navigator sprint where you can come, learn the different levers and bring them back to your organization.
But thanks for listening today and we'll talk to you soon.
